اليوم 1/ديسمبر/2006 على قناة العربيه جمعية الصداقه الاسرائيليه السودانيه

[تراجي ابوطالب]

الاخت بيان
شكرا لمروك
وطبعا (دروس العصر بتاعتك دي لا تملي عن تردرديدها)
وازيدك نور برد عليك من غير ما اقرأ كل كلامك الطويل عريض ده
انا لا اقرأ لاعلامكم المشوه هذا ولا اود ان املأ راسي بمزيد من الترهات.
وسعيده بجهلي هذا الذي في نظرك جهلا.
اشبعي انت بالقرأه للعرب اياهم انا لا اقرأ لهم. وعلى فكره انت منهم.


لمحت موضوع عن دم الفلاشا....باختصار ...اقول لك الدم السوداني في الاردن لا يقبل ايضا!!!!
هل هي عنصريه؟؟؟؟؟؟؟؟؟
ام فعلا ناس بيفتكروا السودانيني اغلبهم مصابين بالملاريا و بالتالي هم لا يرغبون في تلويث
دمائهم بالملاريا ...,اراهم غير مخطئين....فعدد وفيات الملاريا بافريقيا تفوق الايدز.



قد اجد زمنا لاحقا لقرأة مداخلتك
لكن بالله ما تكثيري الكلام كده.
ولا اعتقد هنالك جديد اكيد حتعزفي نفس السيمفونيات التي تعبنا من طنينها بآذننا سنينا من الاعلام العربي.
الخلاصه انه هذه الجمعيه بقت حقيقه واقعه
وانتو يا صفوات مثقفينا شوف لكم قضيه آخرى
هنالك من يقف بكل شجاعه ويقول لكم نفكر بشكلا آخر ولنا الحق في ذلك
شئتم ام ابيتم في ظل اي نظام ديمقراطي سنكون موجودين وسيحضر اسرائيلين لزيارتنا في السودان
وستنزل طيارات اسرائيليه في مطار الخرطوم كما ستنزل في دول عربيه كثيره قريبا.....واتمنى وقتها
ان تحفظوا لي الجميل انني كنت من رائدي التفكير بشكل مختلف.
تراجي.

[تراجي ابوطالب]

الاخ عمك تنقو

[frame="1 80"]خطأ كبير ان لاتعرفي ماهي فكرة برنامج نقطة نظام وطريقة تقديمة ومن هو حسن معوض ..
وتقبلي بالأستضافة .. لان ما حدث في اللقاء لم يخرج عن سياسة وطريقة تقديم البرنامج من سنوات
وهذه هي طريقة الرجل في التقديم وهذه هي فكرة البرنامج .. يعني لا توجد نظرية مؤامرة .[/frame]
بالله
هنالك فرق بين اسلوبه المباغت وبين محاولته للنيل مني بسبب تلك الجمعيه.
اذا لم توجد نظرية مؤامره من حسن معوض الفلسطينين وهو يستضيفني أذن اين توجد؟؟؟؟



ما لم تعرفه انه كيف تم التسجيل...
ومالم تعرفه ان حسن معوض هذا اوقف التسجيل اكثر من مرة ليعيد تغير اسألته لانه اندهش من قوة
طرحي بل عكسي لهجماته المرتده,وكان الادعاء ان هنالك خطأ فني!!!
ويعاد طرح الاسئله مع تغيير بسيط لا يلحظه الفرد بسهوله
وقد علمت بما قاله عني بعد محاورتي ,واعتقد كله كان كلام ايجابي عني.


رايكم مقدر ولكن اكيد لي الحق في الركون للغالبيه...والحمد لله تلفوانات ناس هاجموني من قبل كانت اول من رن في بيتي اليوم مهنئين بأنه برامج موفق جدا,وتكفيني شهادات زملاء في قناة العربيه,بأنهم فخوروين بي
وبمقدرتي على السيطره على الموقف في البرنامج.



ورغم ما عرف عنه كأشرس محاور(حسن معوض) الا اني اعتقد بأني روضته تماما بل وهزمته ايضا.
تراجي.

[تراجي ابوطالب]

[B]بعدين يا دكتوره بيان
خلينا من اسطوانتك المشروخه دي بتاعت ماترجعوا دارفور
وعلى فكره انت وكل الكيزان شابكننا بالاسطوانه دي


لكن بقول لك هاتي من الآخر ما راجعين !!ايه رايك.

ونحن ادرى من اين نخدم اهلنا اكثر ولا نحتاج وصايتك لتقولي لنا ما يحتاجه اهلنا,فاطلعي منها.
وشوف لك شغله ثانيه.
تراجي.[/B]

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Report from the Emergency Protest June 30th at the Westlake Plaza
author: Elliot Stoller and Ed Mast
Jul 01, 2006 18:48

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With banners saying "Stop Killing Innocent Palestinians" and "Cut off Israel aid now", about twenty people greeted rush hour workers and tourists at Westlake mall Friday to protest the re-invasion of the Gaza Strip by the Israeli military. The Israeli policy of collective punishment has meant the death of 34 Palestianians civilians, ten of whom were children, during the month of June. The protesters believe the huge amount of U.S. aid going to Israel is a huge impediment to a peaceful solution. They believe the US has given Israel a green light to do whatever they want, including violating UN resolutions and international law.

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Since the recent Palestinian elections, Israel has escalated a campaign of assassinations, massive artillery bombing, and kidnapping of Palestinians. As of January, Israel has assassinated 172 Palestinians, mostly unarmed civilians. Fifty were killed during the month of June alone.

Israeli attacks on the Palestinian population have nothing to do with the security of Israeli citizens. The current Israeli assaults on the Gaza Strip do not concern the safety of POW Gilad Shalit, an Israeli soldier. These attacks unnecessarily risk Shalit's life and safety. The use of force prior to even considering an exchange of prisoners demonstrates that Israel's political goals are of higher priority than Shalit's life.

The current aggression is part of Prime Minister Olmert's war against the democratically-elected Palestinian administration, with the objective to overthrow it. The kidnapping of 8 Palestinian ministers and 21 members of Parliament, as well as threats to assassinate Palestinian Prime Minister Ismail Haniyeh, make it clear that Israeli Prime Minister Olmert and his Minister of Defense Amir Peretz plan to forcibly topple the Palestinian Authority.

Palestinians in Gaza have a legitimate right to resistance action against Israeli soldiers. Israel has responded with overt terrorism: the bombing of Palestinians civilian areas, including the destruction of electrical power plants, bridges and other infrastructure.

THERE WILL BE ANOTHER PROTEST FRIDAY JULY 7, 5-6 PM, WESTLAKE.

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For more information, contact Palestine Solidarity Committee-Seattle at [email protected].


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Israel's bloody siege of Gaza
Posted by: Elizabeth Schulte at Jul 02, 2006 13:41
Palestinians plunged into humanitarian crisis
Israel’s bloody siege of Gaza

By Elizabeth Schulte | June 30, 2006 | Page 1

ISRAEL TIGHTENED its bloody siege of Gaza following the capture of an Israeli soldier in a raid on Israeli Defense Forces June 25.

Israeli forces launched an offensive into Gaza June 27 as Socialist Worker went to press, including a rocket attack on a power station, which cut off electricity and added to the suffering of Gazans enduring economic sanctions imposed by Israel earlier this year.

Israel said it was launching the attack in retaliation for the capture of the soldier--the first prisoner taken by the Palestinians since 1994. But in reality, this was a pretext for escalating military actions that had already begun.

Israel Defense Minister Amir Peretz announced, “We intend to respond to the incident this morning in a way in which all involved...understand that the price will be painful.” Israeli cabinet members hinted that Hamas leaders--including Palestinian Authority (PA) Prime Minister Ismail Haniya--were potential assassination targets, according to Israel’s Ha’aretz newspaper.

Groups said to have taken part in the kidnapping--the Popular Resistance Committees, a new group calling itself the “Army of Islam,” and Hamas’ military wing Iz a-Din al-Qassam Brigades--demanded that Israel release from prison all Palestinian women and men under the age of 18.

Prisoner support rallies took place June 27 in Nablus, Ramallah, Hebron, Gaza and Rafah. The Nablus event featured armed Hamas activists for the first time in some 18 months. There are currently some 9,000 Palestinians in Israeli prisons.

The Israeli government responded to the soldier’s capture by first sealing off Gaza. Hundreds of Palestinians were stranded on the Egyptian side of the border at the Rafah crossing, and the Egyptian government deployed 2,500 extra troops along the Gaza border to stop any chance of Palestinians fleeing if Israel invades.

All this comes after weeks of crushing Israeli violence against Palestinians.

On June 9, eight Palestinian civilians were killed and 40 wounded in a bloody massacre caused by Israeli artillery shells fired on a Gaza beach. In another attack June 20, an Israeli plane fired two Hell-Fire missiles into a crowded street in the Jabalya refugee camp in northern Gaza. At least three children were killed; 14 civilians, including seven children, were maimed.

The attacks led the Hamas military wing to end the truce it declared in February 2005.

The Israeli government claims its attacks are a valid response to Palestinian militants firing homemade rockets at Israel. However, on June 23, the British Independent newspaper reported, “Almost three times as many Palestinian civilians have been killed in Gaza in the past nine days as Israeli civilians in Sderot killed by Qassam rockets in the past five years.”

Israeli Prime Minister Olmert stated Israel’s position clearly: “I am deeply sorry for the residents of Gaza, but the lives, security and well-being of the residents of Sderot is even more important.”

Tell this to Walid al-Houdaly, a political organizer who was jailed for 12 years and now lives in Ramallah.

“There is one soldier, but there have been hundreds of Palestinians kidnapped from their houses,” said Houdaly, whose wife Ataf was dragged from their home by Israeli soldiers for heading up a women’s organization that provided health services for poor Palestinians, in an interview with BBC News. “If the world protests about the kidnapping of one soldier, why don’t they protest about the Palestinians that have been kidnapped in the last 10 years.”

To this daily violence, harassment and humiliation that Palestinians in Gaza endure, add the misery of living without numerous basic necessities. Half the population of Gaza is not getting enough to eat, according to World Food Program spokesperson Kirstie Campbell.

And, as a result of sanctions imposed on the PA by Israel, the U.S. and the European Union after the election of Hamas in January, the number of Palestinian families who live below the poverty level--$2.70 per person per day--has increased by 9 percent already, according to a recent United Nations report.

In response to the kidnapping, PA President Mahmoud Abbas told Prime Minister Haniyeh that Hamas must bear responsibility for the kidnapped soldier--and the bloody Israeli attack that was likely to follow.

In the run-up to the attack on Gaza, Abbas’ Fatah party pushed Hamas to sign an agreement recognizing the Israeli state and renouncing resistance. On June 27, it was announced that Hamas leaders had agreed to sign the agreement, but that they had not changed their stance on the illegitimacy of the Israeli state.

With this agreement, Abbas hoped to prove to the West that Hamas would “surrender to reality” and prove its commitment to “peace,” so that sanctions would be lifted and aid restored to the PA. But with Israeli tanks plowing through Gaza, no agreement will be enough to stop Israeli’s aim of starving the Palestinians.

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The Zionist state must go!
Posted by: Frank at Jul 09, 2006 21:58
In defense of the Zionist theocracy DK wrote “it seems odd for you to claim that Israel has no right to exist when the Jewish claim to the land predates Islam by nearly 4000 years with archeological evidence to back it up….Why can't the Jews have their own home in their historic homeland?” Well, what about the following evidence, DK?

Christian & and Muslim Arabs, Druze people, Jews, and others lived together fairly peacefully in Palestine for thousands of years---the historic homeland of all of them! Then came the 20th Century, and with it a European-centered Zionist movement to ESTABLISH a Jewish “homeland”. But, since the world was already divided up between the big imperialist powers, this meant making deals with them for already-peopled territories. In fact, the Zionists first discussed present-day Zimbabwe with the British colonialists before striking a deal regarding Palestine.

The Jews of Palestine were a minority of the population, however, and the whole area was controlled by Britain. But British colonialism was also in decline, and to hold on in Palestine it smiled upon the Zionists recruiting Jews from all over the world to settle there. This served the divide and rule strategy Britain was notorious for using to dominate its colonies, with the Arab Palestinian anti-colonial general strike and rebellion of 1938 only highlighting the tenuousness of its position.

Britain came out of WWII greatly weakened, while the Zionists had further packed Palestine with Jews while arming gangs (the Irgun, the Stern Gang, Ben-Gurian’s Haganah militia) to terrorize Arabs and steal their land, etc. In May 1948 they proclaimed the State of Israel on territories laid down in a 1947 UN partition plan supported by all the big imperialist powers, including the former USSR. This was followed by massacres at Deir Yassin and other places: a brutal policy of ethnic “cleansing”. (Perhaps DK will explain to us where the six million Arab Palestinians scattered in refugee camps around the Middle East, or working in Dearborn auto plants and as California field hands came from? Where is their homeland?)

Thus, from the beginning this state was based on Zionist settler-colonialist robbery and butchery backed by the big imperialist powers. Moreover, once in power, the Zionists had no intention of sticking with the original partition plan, atrocity against democracy that it was. No, David Ben-Gurian openly envisioned “an empire stretching from the River to the Sea”, while a later Prime Minister (American-raised Golda Meir) proclaimed there were “no Palestinians, only native germs”. No, the left didn’t make it up, Zionism is racism.

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no to Zionism and imperialism
Posted by: X9 at Jul 05, 2006 13:20
The whole state of Israel is a Zionist white racist settler state founded on stolen Palestinian land. It has no right to exist and the Palestinians have every right to resist.

That doesn't mean I agree with the Islamist fundamentalism of Hamas nor the sellout reformist narrow nationalism of Fatah and so forth. Nor does it excuse suicide bombs in malls, restaurants, etc. Actions like these flow from the aforementioned bankrupt political lines and orientations.

The Palestinian working class must struggle to assume leadership of the overall struggle against Zionism and imperialism.

Attempts should also be made to forge some kind of unity with the masses of people living within the Zionist entity. Obviously it is much easier to talk about these things on the internet than to actually do them.

Even the most leftist of Israelis tend to be very Zionist in outlook. For instance, the "hard core of the Israeli peace movement", Gush Shalom, subscribes to the racist Zionist nonsense about preserving Israel's "demographic character" (read: ethnic "purity")--itself the result of massive atrocities. So uniting with Israelis is very difficult. Still, it seems there are many "left" Zionists who are genuinely outraged at much of what Zionism does. Thousands of people in Israel have come forward to oppose actions undertaken by the illegitimate Zionist state, and this is important, even though most of these people have not fully broken with the racist Zionist ideology.

I really don't know what I'd do if I lived in Palestine. Clearly it is very difficult just to survive, let alone re-establish a genuine proletarian trend for both national and class liberation. People there need our support which we mainly give by making it more difficult for "our" bourgeoisie to aid the Zionist oppressors. I will also add that cheerleading for narrow nationalist and Islamist oppressors like Hamas aids neither the Palestinian national liberation struggle nor the Palestinian working class. It is no substitute for building a real mass movement against "our own" ruling class.

Usually there is a direct relationship between urging class collaboration in this country (i.e., Nader, McDermott, etc.) and cheerleading for whatever narrow garbage that rises to prominence in the Third World (i.e., Islamist fundamentalism, revisionist regimes, etc.). People should learn what they can from this.

Obviously it is a very complex situation without any easy answers. I've only scratched the surface of some of the most basic issues involved.




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Zionism as Jewish National Socialism
author: Lasse Wilhelmson
Jul 11, 2004 14:17

Israel - not even a democracy for Jews

There is a law in Israel, passed in 1985, which forbids political parties to openly oppose the principle of a Jewish state. Neither are they allowed to work for a change of this principle through democratic means. A party so doing will be banned from elections to the Knesset. Democracy is thus denied to those citizens - even Jews - who wish to work within the parliamentary system towards replacing the Jewish state with a secular state which represents all its citizens' equal rights regardless of religion or ethnic origin. This law alone prevents Israel from being seen as a liberal democracy of Western type.


Zionism as Jewish National Socialism
By Lasse Wilhelmson

Somewhat mysterious personality, Hess is credited with being a source of the Jewish Question by Karl Marx, who however repudiated him in strong terms. Hess rejected the Class war concept of Marx and offered the Race war and Class peace idea, later utilised by Adolf Hitler. Herzl thought Hess was the true founder of Zionism and his Forerunner. Lasse Wilhelmson calls for a single democratic state in the whole of Palestine, and for boycott of Israel until its racist laws are repealed. Following Israel Shahak, he finds Judaism an extremely problematic doctrine and an origin of Israeli racism. He calls for creation of a Palestinian version of ANC, a joint movement for all native and adoptive Palestinians.

Zionism - more than traditional colonialism and apartheid
By Lasse Wilhelmson
[email protected]


The Jewish colonisation of Palestine under the Zionist slogan "the land without people to the people without a land" started almost a hundred years ago and reached its first climax with the proclamation of The Jewish State of Israel in 1948. A second climax is now in the offing through the ongoing colonisation of the West Bank and Gaza.
A Jewish state needs a substantial majority of Jews in the population. This has been insured by means of immigration, terror and expulsion of the native Palestine population. Jewish hegemony in Israel today is secured through a system of apartheid inherent in all aspects of Society, be it law, administration or religion. Israel lacks a constitution and fixed boarders, which is fully consistent with Zionism's call for continual expansion.

Israel - not even a democracy for Jews

There is a law in Israel, passed in 1985, which forbids political parties to openly oppose the principle of a Jewish state. Neither are they allowed to work for a change of this principle through democratic means. A party so doing will be banned from elections to the Knesset. Democracy is thus denied to those citizens - even Jews - who wish to work within the parliamentary system towards replacing the Jewish state with a secular state which represents all its citizens' equal rights regardless of religion or ethnic origin. This law alone prevents Israel from being seen as a liberal democracy of Western type.

All Jews living outside Israel are entitled by law to immigrate and become citizens immediately, while the Palestinian refugees who were expelled from their homes are prohibited from returning. This is a violation of international law. Israel is the only country in the world that defines its land as belonging to just one group of its citizens, namely Jews. This law works as a fundamental national apartheid law and turns all Jews into potential enemies of the Palestinians.

Israel is an apartheid state

Other laws and administrative regulations emphasize Israel as a Jewish apartheid state. Israeli ID cards indicate whether the holder is Jewish or not and Jews in Israel may not marry non-Jews. Non-Jewish Israelis cannot purchase government-owned land. Many Arab villages in Israel are not zoned as residential areas, as a result of which they have no access to public services such as electricity and water. The disqualification of most Arab Israelis from military service reinforces discrimination as regards social benefits, education and the like.

In Israel/Palestine today, there are three apartheid classes of people.

1. Jews are fully qualified citizens of Israel, the West Bank, Gaza and the whole world.
2. Non-Jews in Israel, mainly Palestinians (20 percent) are second class citizens
3. Palestinians are stateless non-citizens on the West Bank, in Gaza or in refugee camps in neighbouring countries.

Israel continues to violate international law and commit crimes against humanity. They have conducted genocide against the Palestinians for a hundred years. When Israel became a member of the UN in 1949 an objection was raised regarding a previous UN demand that the refugees be allowed to return home at the earliest possible date and that they should receive full compensation for property, according to international law and practice. For 55 years, Israel has completely ignored this demand. On these grounds alone Israel could be expelled from the UN. No other state, saving Israel, has so completely ignored so many UN resolutions. Israel is a military superpower with nuclear weapons and took active part in the US and England's war against Iraq. Without any provocation, Israel recently bombed targets in Syria and armed its fleet with nuclear weapons. Previously they attacked Egypt and Lebanon amongst others.

How could this evolve? What is the ideology behind this very special project of colonialism, the only one that has survived two turns of a century? What sort of ideology is Zionism?

More than a hundred years of colonialism

Colonising Palestine continues today on the West Bank and in Gaza according to the practical plan presented by Theodor Herzl in his book "The Jewish State"(1896) The book is mainly about how the project could be financed and how land in Palestine could be transferred to Jewish ownership. The plan was affirmed by the first Zionist Congress 1897. Herzl had some important starting points for the Zionist Project.


Antisemitism cannot be remedied by the assimilation of Jews.
Jews are a race of people with a right to their own state.
Palestine (or Zion) is the home of the Jewish State
The goal is a socialist Utopia - a model state

The term Zionism was, however, conceived by Nathan Birnbaum in 1885. Together with Herzl he made up the leadership of the Zionist World Organisation. Later on he became a spokesman for Judaism in the Diaspora - outside Israel/Palestine.

Moses Hess - the Communist Rabbi

The fundamental ideology of Zionism however evolved much earlier with Moses Hess. He was one of Germany's earliest renowned Socialists. He was a Utopian, a Hegelian and a good friend of Karl Marx. Hess also wrote a contribution to The Communist Manifesto (1848) on the question of Religion as opium to the masses. He is considered by Zionists as the first Zionist. As he grew older he dissociated himself from Marx and "returned" to his People, that is to say Judaism. Marx shunned Hess' chauvinistic ideas. "Communist Rabbi Moses" as he was also called, wrote Zionism's Magnum Opus which Herzl later referred to as the book which says everything there is worth saying about Zionism. This book, "Rome and Jerusalem" was published by Hess in 1862. He was inspired, amongst others, by Spinoza. He defines the Jewish Nation by the following components:


The Jewish race - superior and chosen
Palestine - the homeland of the Jewish people
The Jewish religion - the best guarantee for Jewish nationality.

The importance of Blood in defining racial purity was common at that time and was also part of Hess' conception. He saw the German race as antagonistic to the Jewish race. He worried about the antisemitism apparent in Germany at that time and this was his main reason for "returning" to Judaism. For him, Socialism, apart from developing equality of the classes must also develop a moral dimension. The Jewish State should have the makings of a Socialist State. Hess predicted both the foundation of the State of Israel and the Holocaust 80 -85 years in advance of these occurrences. Hess considered France to be the foremost ally of the Jews. This was before the Dreyfus trail in France which came to be the one event that convinced Theodor Herzl that Zionism was the only solution to antisemitism.

Marxist Zionism and Zionist Revisionism

After the first Zionist Congress, the renowned Marxist Ber Borochov developed the rigorous policies of the Zionist Project. He argued territorial concentration as a solution to, among other things, the Jewish question. He founded Poalei Zion, the Marxist Zionist Party which supported the Russian Revolution in 1917. David Ben Gurion, one of the Party members and Israel's founder, came to Palestine at the beginning of the twentieth century. He considered himself a Bolshevik and was in favour of the dictatorship of the proletariat in all countries, except Palestine where he favoured the dictatorship of Zionism. Ben Gurion considered Jewish national interests superior to class interests in Palestine: a clear case of unmitigated National Socialist leanings.

When the Poalei Zion split up, Ben Gurion became the leader of the Social Democrat wing and was influential in Zionism for years to come. The colonisation took place in the name of Socialism and the enlightened culture of the Western World. Under the forceful leadership of Ben Gurion the colonisation proceeded in stages while upholding negotiations with the Palestinians. The foundation of the Jewish state could wait. The first issue was the building of a strong army (Hagana), which could drive the Palestinians out and create and defend a substantial Jewish majority on as large a part of Palestine as possible. The strategy was very successful. Israel was proclaimed in 1948 on land which geographically comprised almost 80% of the whole of Palestine: a considerable increase to the UN Partition plan which offered Jews 55%. Today Israel has seized all of the original Palestine, while the Palestinian villages are now surrounded by The Wall, cut through by motorways - only for Jews - and interspersed with hundreds of check points and fortified Jewish settlements.

A minority within Zionism, represented by Zeév Jabotinsky wanted immediate action. In 1925 he founded a Zionist revisionist movement. In the article "The Iron Wall" (1937), he stated, among other things, that all native people are against colonisation, even the Palestinians. Colonisers must therefore use the utmost determination to show that opposition does not pay off. "We hold that Zionism is moral and just. And since it is moral and just, justice must be done, no matter whether Joseph or Simon or Ivan or Achmet agree with it or not. There is no other morality." (ibid.) The above mentioned are the two main standpoints within Zionism which have also, during different periods of time, served as the official ideology in Israel. Interwoven in these and of varying importance, are other movements such as practical Zionism, radical messianic Zionism, religious Zionism, spiritual/cultural Zionism and more.

Zionism, National Socialism and Fascism

While Ben Gurion sympathised with Marxism and later on with Social Democracy, Jabotinsky sympathised with Fascism. He admired Mussolini who supported him. Jabotinsky died in 1940 before the proclamation of The State Of Israel. He founded the Jewish terror organisation Irgun which committed its most horrible deeds during the expulsion of the Palestinians. The Lehi, a splinter group headed by Stern, murdered Folke Bernadotte who was the UN representative and mediator. The man who pulled the trigger became Ben Gurion's good friend and security guard when he retired to the kibbutz Sde Bocker. The leaders of both organisations Menachem Begin and Yitzhak Shamir later became Prime Ministers of Israel.

It is remarkable how similar the two Zionist standpoints are in practical politics. The Iron-Wall policy is now being completed by Israel's present Prime Minister, Ariel Sharon, with greater military force than ever before. Sharon belongs to the same right-wing group as Begin and Shamir (Likud). However it was the governments lead by the Social Democrats that started and completed most of the considerable expansion of Jewish settlements on the West Bank and Gaza. The Eastern European Jews, who were Marxists, stamped their mark on the colonisation of Palestine during the first half of the twentieth century. Collective farms - the kibbutz - were the main instrument in bringing it about. They were democratic, socialist, experimental units, often secular. No money was in use and the collective upbringing of children was common for a long time. Only Jews were allowed to be members. The seemingly racist kibbutz played an important part in the capture and military defence of occupied territory. The settlements of today on the West Bank and in Gaza serve a similar purpose, though they are religiously orthodox.

A Zionist leftist ideology dominated in the beginning. As shown above this can also be seen as Jewish National Socialism, upheld by Ben Gurion. After the occupation of the West Bank and Gaza in 1967 a Zionist right-wing ideology, like Jabotinsky`s has dominated. The Israeli "left" of today is predominately left-wing Zionism. Within Zionism's two main standpoints there has been interaction. Thus left-wing Zionism has targeted policies for the settlements, while the right-wing has been responsible for terrorism and ethnic cleansing. After 1967, the religious influence on Israel's politics has grown. However, religion has always been important in Zionism. Nowadays in Israel, religion and politics have merged.

Zionism and Jewish Religion

Classic Judaism (and orthodox of today) has its roots in the Jewish societies in Europe of the Middle Ages. Zionism has given it a boost. Its antagonism towards non-Jews and the opinion that Jews are God's Chosen People has great impact on Israel's policies towards the rest of the world.

According to Halachah, classic Judaism's laws and customs, for example "compassion towards others" extends to Jews only. Murder or manslaughter is judged mildly when the perpetrator is Jewish and the victim a non-Jew. Also according to Halachah, it is accepted for a Jew to kill a non-Jew if he is laying claim to "eternal Jewish land". This is what the settlers' religious organisations are alleging. There is no corresponding law in Israel's judicial system but in effect it influences the system as punishment of such crimes is very mild.

Israel's state terrorism, theft of land and occupation, demolition of houses, the building of the Wall etc including the so called 'extra-judicial killings' (assassinations), are seen by Zionists as legitimate defence of the Nation and therefore fall under international law - which Israel ignores. Israel Shahak discusses the influence classic Judaism has on Israel's policies in his book "Jewish History, Jewish Religion" (1996). For a long period of time Shahak was chairman of Israel's Society for Human and Civil Rights. He is especially critical of the double moral standards kept by prominent left wing intellectual Jews, particularly Martin Buber, the well known philosopher. Buber critisised Nazism while commending the Jewish Religion (Hassidism) but keeping quiet about its dehumanising of non-Jews (goyim). These double standards act to increase Israel's chauvinism and hatred of all non-Jews. Israel's Peace Movement has been accused of harbouring similar sentiments.

Many countries which think of themselves as modern, attempt to do away with religious thinking from the Middle Ages, mainly by the separation of Church from State and laws against racism. The opposite has occurred in Israel. The revival of classic Judaism in Israel's politics can be seen as an expression of Zionist expansion, thus increasing opposition to the Palestinian Arabs. Had the Jews, some 75 years ago, chosen a bi-national democracy for their national sovereignty, there could have been peaceful development of the English Mandate for Palestine. The Mandate was partitioned by the UN in 1947 even though this meant the further extension of land already colonised. Judah Magnes, head of the Hebrew University in Jerusalem, advocated bi-nationalism, as did Folke Bernadotte, the UN mediator. A Jewish nationalism which acknowledges the Palestinians right to national sovereignty is more in keeping with Judaism's long tradition of humanity and "Jewish Enlightenment". But the Zionists under their leader Ben Gurion demanded a Jewish State in no less than the whole of Palestine.

The next opportunity Israel had to achieve a peaceful development was the Oslo Agreement. The Palestinians accepted a Jewish State on 78% of land that was the original Palestine in return for the development of their own State on the remaining 22%. But the Zionists turned down this generous offer. Israel has thus repeatedly rejected solutions which could have insured Jewish national interests and given them international recognition. Instead of this, Israel has chosen a policy which runs the risk of shattering The Jewish state. The logic of this can not be understood without taking into consideration classic Judaism's close connection with Zionism.

Zionism and Nazism

Moses Hess put together the fundamental components Race, People, Nation and "the Chosen" to make a National Socialist version of colonialism. It was later to be known as Zionism. Hitler, 60 years on, put together the same components in Mein Kampf and formed his National Socialist Party. Hess' opinions about the "purity of the Jewish race" correspond to Hitler's belief in "the pure Aryan race".

This is extreme chauvinism based on the theory of the connection between "Blood and Soil". Despite the similarity of ideological structure, there are differences in constitutional and organisational structures. The same goes for similarities to the former apartheid State of South Africa. Family ties (Blood ties) are however still basic to Jews all over the world and in the Jewish state of Israel. A person with a Jewish mother is defined for religious purposes as a Jew, according to the Jewish Community in Stockholm, even if he considers himself an atheist. Jewish religion and family ties today are interwoven at a personal level, like religion and politics are in Society as a whole, as shown above.

"I too, like Hitler, believe in the power of the blood idea", Chaim Nachman Bialik writes this in "The Present Hour" (1934) Bailik is Israel's most acclaimed poet. Had it been 10 years later he would probably have chosen to refer to Moses Hess, or kept quiet on the matter. Bialik's sentiments on the enigma of the Blood can also be found in the above mentioned Martin Buber's book "On Judaism" (1967).

Summary

Israel is not only a traditional colonial State with apartheid and racism, but also a Western imperialist fortress in The Orient. Zionism also means expansion and ethnic cleansing. Furthermore, it is an elitist ideology. It grows politically and religiously amongst the broad masses of people and is thereby strengthened. Religious totalitarianism is its ideological base with strong links to National Socialism and Fascism.
The brutal violence, the intransigence and the dehumanisation of the Palestinians can only be understood against this background. Against this background, the genocide of the Palestinians is possible and consistent. It is the background against which Israel is a "time bomb" in the Middle East policies of the US. It is high time Zionism and its Jewish State was replaced by a secular parliamentary democracy with equal rights for all citizens regardless of ethnic or religious beliefs. The grounds for a system of apartheid and the occupation of the West Bank and Gaza would thereby disappear. This is a necessary, if not conclusive, requirement if there is to be lasting peace between Israeli Jews and Palestinian Arabs. Whether it results in one or two secular democracies is of secondary importance.
A feasible strategy for achieving democracy in Israel/Palestine would be the start of a liberation movement where Jews and Palestinians could pull together similar to the ANC movement in South Africa. Those Jews and Palestinians who are already fighting Zionism should therefore be given support first.
It is also high time Jews - both in Israel and elsewhere - started reforming the Jewish religion. The concept of Blood ties should be replaced by religious conviction, the idea of Jews as "The Chosen People" should be rejected and Jews looked upon as people like everyone else.
The current genocide must stop. First of all for the sake of the Palestinians but also for the Jews. It fires a growing hatred of Jews in large parts of the World. United Nations forces are needed to protect the Palestinians and worldwide sanctions of Israel should be maintained.

Lasse Wilhelmson, Stockholm
[email protected]


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[بندر شاه]

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للمزيد من الإطلاع أرجو الدخول من الرابط أدناه

[align=center]http://seattle.indymedia.org/en/2001/05/3494.shtml[/align]


Nelson Mandela Speaks Out Against Israel
author: FREE PALESTINE!
May 20, 2001 16:51

Memo from former South African President Nelson Mandela To Thomas L. Friedman (New York Times Columnist)


MANDELA\'S FIRST MEMO TO THOMAS FRIEDMAN

To: Thomas L. Friedman (New York Times Columnist)
From: Nelson Mandela (former President of South Africa)


Dear Thomas:

I know that you and I long for peace in the Middle East, but before you continue to talk about necessary conditions from an Israeli perspective, you need to know what\'s on my mind. Where to begin? How about 1964. Let me quote my own words during my trial. They are true today as they were then:

\"I have fought against white domination and I have fought against black domination. I have cherished the ideal of a democratic and free society in which all persons live together in harmony and with equal opportunities. It is an ideal which I hope to live for and to achieve. But if needs be, it is an ideal for which I am prepared to die.\"

Today the world, black and white, recognize that apartheid has no future. In South Africa it has been ended by our own decisive mass action in order to build peace and security. That mass campaign of defiance and other actions could only culminate in the establishment of democracy.

Perhaps it is strange for you to observe the situation in Palestine or more specifically, the structure of political and cultural relationships between Palestinians and Israelis, as an apartheid system. This is because you incorrectly think that the problem of Palestine began in 1967. This was demonstrated in your recent column \"Bush\'s First Memo\" in the New York Times on March 27, 2001.

You seem to be surprised to hear that there are still problems of 1948 to be solved, the most important component of which is the right to return of Palestinian refugees.

The Palestinian-Israeli conflict is not just an issue of military occupation and Israel is not a country that was established \"normally\" and happened to occupy another country in 1967. Palestinians are not struggling for a \"state\" but for freedom, liberation and equality, just like we were struggling for freedom in South Africa.

In the last few years, and especially during the reign of the Labour Party, Israel showed that it was not even willing to return what it occupied in 1967; that settlements remain, Jerusalem would be under exclusive Israeli sovereignty, and Palestinians would not have an independent state, but would be under Israeli economic domination with Israeli control of borders, land, air, water and sea.

Israel was not thinking of a \"state\" but of \"separation\". The value of separation is measured in terms of the ability of Israel to keep the Jewish state Jewish, and not to have a Palestinian minority that could have the opportunity to become a majority at some time in the future. If this takes place, it would force Israel to either become a secular democratic or bi-national state, or to turn into a state of apartheid not only de facto, but also de jure.

Thomas, if you follow the polls in Israel for the last 30 or 40 years, you clearly find a vulgar racism that includes a third of the population who openly declare themselves to be racist. This racism is of the nature of \"I hate Arabs\" and \"I wish Arabs would be dead\". If you also follow the judicial system in Israel you will see there is discrimination against Palestinians, and if you further consider the 1967 occupied territories you will find there are already two judicial systems in operation that represent two different approaches to human life: one for Palestinian life and the other for Jewish life. Additionally there are two different approaches to property and to land. Palestinian property is not recognized as private property because it can be confiscated.

As to the Israeli occupation of the West Bank and Gaza, there is an additional factor. The so-called \"Palestinian autonomous areas\" are bantustans. These are restricted entities within the power structure of the Israeli apartheid system.

The Palestinian state cannot be the by-product of the Jewish state, just in order to keep the Jewish purity of Israel. Israel\'s racial discrimination is daily life of most Palestinians. Since Israel is a Jewish state, Israeli Jews are able to accrue special rights which non-Jews cannot do. Palestinian Arabs have no place in a \"Jewish\" state.

Apartheid is a crime against humanity. Israel has deprived millions of Palestinians of their liberty and property. It has perpetuated a system of gross racial discrimination and inequality. It has systematically incarcerated and tortured thousands of Palestinians, contrary to the rules of international law. It has, in particular, waged a war against a civilian population, in particular children.

The responses made by South Africa to human rights abuses emanating from the removal policies and apartheid policies respectively, shed light on what Israeli society must necessarily go through before one can speak of a just and lasting peace in the Middle East and an end to its apartheid policies.

Thomas, I\'m not abandoning Mid-east diplomacy. But I\'m not going to indulge you the way your supporters do. If you want peace and democracy, I will support you. If you want formal apartheid, we will not support you. If you want to support racial discrimination and ethnic cleansing, we will oppose you. When you figure out what you\'re about, give me a call.

Nelson Mandela


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[تراجي ابوطالب]

العزيز بندر شاه
يازول انت مقوم نفسك وتعبان كده ليه
يا اخي اقلنا لا يفترض ان نكون ملكين اكثر من الملك حسه اغلب المتظاهرين الجبتهم ديل خواجات وممكن يكونوا يهود ايضا
يبقى المشكله وين؟؟؟؟من القال لك اسرائيل كحكومه ما ظلامه....؟؟؟؟؟
ومثال هل كون صدام حسين كان سفاحا ومعه حزب دموي يضم الملايين منعنا من اقامة علاقة صداقه او تداخل مع شعب العراق....ولا اعتقد تريدنا ان نرجع لمربع واحد وحق الارض ومن له هذه الارض؟؟
لقيت مداخله مختصره قلت اجيبها لك...
ويسلم محمد عمر الفكي...
http://www.sudaneseonline.com/cgi-bi...165010166&rn=8

[frame="1 80"]تراجي ابدعت وبدعت
اول مرة اراها تتكلم
بلاغة، منطق، اسلوب، حجة دامغة، لسنا مطالبين ان نكون ملكيين اكثر من الملك.
الفلسطينيون يبيعون الاسمنت لاسرائيل لتبني به الجدار العازل!!!! اسرائيل اكبر شريك تجاري للفلسطينيين، ابو مازن كما قال عبد الباري عطوان يسكر مع باراك، غالبية الشعب الفلسطيني في استفتاء وفي الرد علي سؤال اذا تم تخييرك بين كونفدرالية مع اسرائيل او الاردن فايهما تختار؟ الغالبية الساحقة مع اسرائيل
وكفي [/frame]

اها يازول الناس ديل خيرهم بين الاتحاد مع الاردن او اسرائيل وقالوا اسرائيل
نحن شن دخلنا بعد ده.


يا بندر شاه دعني احكي لك هذه القصه...
في عام 1989 ذهبنا مع الجامعه في رحله عمليه لمنطقة (رفح) احد مدن محافظة العريش بمصر (كنت ادرس بها) وكانت اول مرة اشاهد اسرائيل من البعد,نفذنا بحث علمي مع اهالي المنطقه....ووجدانهم يبكون على ايام اليهود..اقصد المصرين الذين كانوا تحت الاحتلال,,,وحكوا لنا انهم كانوا عندما يحفرون بئرا يآتي اليهود لمساعدتهم
الآن السطلات المصريه تردم بئرك وتطالبك بأجرائات روتينيه ممله لتستخرج أذن لحفر بئر.


كان بقية اهل القاهره المقيمن هنالك يتحدثون عن اهل العريش (كخونه) ويقولن بأنهم اصدقاء لليهود
وان اسرائيليلن كثر كانوا جنودا يعودون الآن لزيارة اصدقائهم المصرين وينزلون معهم في بيوتهم!!! وكنا منهدشين
مثلهم وبسؤالنا لاهل العريش قالوا نعم هم اصدقائنا ولم نرى منهم الا كل الخير....فكيف يعتقد اهل مصر(يقصدون
القاهره) اننا نتخلى عن اصدقائنا....؟؟


غاردناهم ونحن منهدشين...الآن فقط افهم معنى كلامهم وافهم ان الاحتكاك يزيل كثير من الحواجز النفسيه و المعنويه ويجعلنا اكثر مقدرة على تقبل الآخر.

اذهب للمواقع الالكترونيه الاسرائيليه وأقرا ستجد صور كثيره لمظاهرت تضامنيه مع الفلسطينين.


ولن اعود لاؤكد لك ما قاله محمد عمر الفكي...بأن الراسماليه الفلسطينينه هي احرص على التطبيع من اي
فرد آخر وقد شاهدت بنفسي في الاردن كيف فتحت مصانع كثيره بتشجيع من راسماليه فلسطينيه بعد ان
اغلقت ابوباها باسرائيل وشردت عماله فلسطينينه بتشجيع فلسطيني ويتم استغلال العمال الاردنين واغلبهم
من اصول فلسطينينه ايضا (باجور زهيده) و الفائده للراسمالي. الفلسطيني الذي لا يهمه شعبه....اذن عن اي فلسطين نتحدث هنا نحن.يا اخي.
تراجي.

[بندر شاه]

&
ترجمه بواسطة قوقل ( آسف لوجود بعض الأخطاء اللغويه )


نلسون مانديلا صوته ضد اسرائيل
المؤلف : فلسطين حرة!20 ايار / مايو16:51 2001 مذكرة من رئيس جنوب افريقيا السابق نلسون مانديلا الى توماس فريدمان (نيويورك تايمز عمود (مانديلا / هيكل أول مذكرة الى توماس فريدمان :توماس فريدمان (نيويورك تايمز عمود) :

نلسون مانديلا رئيس جنوب افريقيا السابق (توماس الاعزاء :انا اعلم انكم وأنا تواقون الى السلام في الشرق الاوسط ، ولكنك تتحدث عن الشروط الضروريه من منظور اسرائيلي ، فإنك فى حاجة الى معرفة ما يدور في ذهني
.من أين نبدأ؟
ماذا عن عام 1964.واسمحوا لي ان استشهد بعباره بلدي خلال محاكمتي.وصحيح اليوم كما كانت من قبل :/ "لقد حاربت ضد هيمنه البيض ولقد حاربت ضد هيمنه السود. وقد طالبنا يقيام مجتمع ديمقراطي وحريعيش فيه كل الناس معا في انسجام ، وبفرص متساويه. وهونموزج مثالي وأمل للعيش وتحقيق الديقراطيه و الحريه. لكن اذا لزم الامر لتحقيق هذا الحل المثالي الذي أنشده فأنا على استعداد للموت.
"العالم اليوم ، ابيض واسود ، ريكوغنيزي العنصري لا مستقبل له.في جنوب افريقيا فقد انتهت من قرارنا الجماعي في العمل من اجل بناء السلام والامن الدوليين.ان حملة كبيرة من التحدي وغيرها من الاجراءات لا يمكن أن تنتهي إلى إقامة الديمقراطيه.ولعل من الغريب عليكم مراعاه الحاله في فلسطين او بشكل اكثر تحديدا ،هيكل العلاقات السياسية والثقافيه بين الفلسطينيين والاسرائيليين ، حيث نظام الفصل العنصري.وهذا خطأ لأنك اعتقد ان مشكلة فلسطين منذ عام 1967.وقد تجلى ذلك في رسالتكم الاخيرة العمود / "بوش / الشاهد الاول مذكرة شينخوا" في صحيفة نيويورك تايمز فى 27 مارس 2001

.يبدو أنك لتفاجا ان تسمع ان هناك مشاكل من 1948 الى حلها ،واهم عنصر فيها هو حق العودة للاجئين الفلسطينيين.الصراع الاسرائيلي - الفلسطيني ليست مجرد قضية احتلال عسكري وليس اسرائيل هي البلد الذي انشئ بطريقه غير عادية فى موضع بلد آخر وجرى احتلال بلاد آخرى في عام 1967.الفلسطينيون لا يكافحون ليشيدوا "الدولةالفلسطينيه " ولكن من اجل الحرية والتحرر والمساواة مثلما كنا نكافح من اجل الحرية في جنوب افريقيا.في السنوات القليلة الماضية ، وخاصة خلال حكم حزب العملاسرائيل أظهرت انها غير مستعدة حتى لاعادة ما احتلته عام 1967.
ان استمرار النشاط الاستيطاني ،أن تكون القدس تحت السياده الاسرائيلية المطلقة ، والفلسطينيين لن يكون دولة مستقلةولكن تحت الهيمنة الاقتصادية الاسرائيلية مع السيطرة الاسرائيلية على الحدود والأراضي والهواء والمياه والبحار.

اسرائيل لا تفكر اى الدولة بل الإنفصال وهو يقاس بمدى قدرة اسرائيل على ابقاء الدولة اليهودية يهوديه وليس لها أي الاقليه الفلسطينية التي يمكن ان تتاح لها الفرصة لتصبح الاغلبيه في وقت ما في المستقبل.اذا تم ذلك ، من اجبار اسرائيل على ان تصبح أما الديمقراطيه العلمانية أو الدولة الثنائية القوميه ،أو تتحول دولة الفصل العنصري ليس في الواقع ،
بل ايضا بحكم القانون.توماس كنتم متابعة الانتخابات في اسرائيل على مدى 30 او 40 عاما ،لكم بوضوح ايجاد المبتذله العنصريه التي تضم ثلث سكان الذي اعلن صراحة بأنها عنصرية.هذه العنصريه هي من طبيعهنشأة الكين الإسرائيلى "انا بكره العرب /" / "اتمنى ان يكون القتلى العرب /"
.اذا كنت تتبع ايضا النظام القضائي في اسرائيل ستجد هناك تمييز ضد الفلسطينيينواذا كنت كذلك النظر في الاراضي المحتلة عام 1967 ، وستجدون ان هناك بالفعل اثنين في العملية القضاءيه التي تمثل نهجين مختلفين للحياة البشريه :واحد للحياة الفلسطينية والاخرى للحياة اليهودية.كما ان هناك نهجين مختلفين الملكيه والاراضي.ممتلكات فلسطينية لا تعترف الملكيه الخاصة لانها يمكن مصادرتها.كما ان الاحتلال الاسرائيلي للضفة الغربية وغزة ، وهناك عامل اضافي.ما يسمى / "مناطق الحكم الذاتي الفلسطيني /" البانتوستانات.لا تقتصر هذه الكيانات داخل هيكل السلطة من نظام الفصل العنصري الإسرائيلي.الدولة الفلسطينية لا يمكن ان تكون من الانتاج للدولة العبريةفقط من اجل الحفاظ على النقاء اليهودي لاسرائيل.اسرائيل / 'او التمييز العنصري في الحياة اليوميه لمعظم الفلسطينيين.لان اسرائيل دولة يهوديه واسرائيلية اليهود امكنة خاصة حقوق غير اليهود لا يستطيعون ذلك.العرب الفلسطينيين لا مكان لها فى نوفمبر "اليهودي /".الفصل العنصري جريمه ضد الانسانيه.اسرائيل حرمت ملايين الفلسطينيين من حريتهم وممتلكاتهم.وادام نظام التمييز القومي وعدم المساواة.فقد سجن وتعذيب منهجي الالاف من الفلسطينيين ، خلافا لقواعد القانون الدولي.وبوجه خاص ، شن حرب ضد السكان المدنيين ، ولا سيما الاطفال.الردود المقدمة من جنوب افريقيا لحقوق الانسان المنبثقة عن سياسات العزل والفصل العنصري على التواليالقاء الضوء على ما يجب بالضروره ان المجتمع الاسرائيلي يمر قبل أن يمكن الحديث عن سلام عادل ودائم في الشرق الاوسط ووضع حد لسياسات الفصل العنصري.توماس فإنني / م 'لن تتخلى عن منتصف الشرق الدبلوماسية.لكنني / م 'لن ننغمس لكم الطريق لكم ولا انصار.اذا كنت تريد السلام والديمقراطيه سأؤيدكم.اذا اردت الفصل العنصري ، لن نؤيدكم .إذا أردتم دعم التمييز العنصري والتطهير العرقي ، فاننا سنعارضكم . اتصل بى عندما تقرر

.نيلسون مانديلا

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[bayan]

شئتم ام ابيتم في ظل اي نظام ديمقراطي سنكون موجودين وسيحضر اسرائيلين لزيارتنا في السودان
وستنزل طيارات اسرائيليه في مطار الخرطوم كما ستنزل في دول عربيه كثيره قريبا.....واتمنى وقتها
ان تحفظوا لي الجميل انني كنت من رائدي التفكير بشكل مختلف.

اها احلام ظلوتك دي السواديين ديمقراطيا بسقطوها
بعدين يعني انت حترجعي بعد الديمقراطية تجي؟

يعني بعد سنتين كدا حتكوني في الخرطوم
.
يا تراجي انت زولة بسيطة والله..
لا بترجعي دارفور ولا السودان
لانه ناس دارفور شغالين هروب الى الامام
البتقلع يجي الخرطوم ما بيرجع والبتقلع من الخرطوم ما بيرجع...

مسكينة يا تراجي وتثيري الشفقة..

[طارق الحسن محمد]

المشاركة الأصلية كتبت بواسطة الأمين العام لسودانيات

تحياتي طارق ..





لا نقوم بحل الاعتراضات في البوست يا طارق ...

نعم من قام بالامر هو الخا خالد الحاج وقد كنت غير متواجد اونلاين حينها ..

واعتبر ما قام به خالد الحاج قليل جدا وكلمتين فقط وكنت اتمني ان يكون الحذف اكتر من هذا .


نختلف هذا امر ... اما ان نتجاوز في الكلام فهذا غير مقبول يا طارق ..
نناقش الفكرة هذا امر اما ان نشخصن الامور فهذا لا نقبله ... وانت الذي كتب :


http://sudaniyat.net/vb/showthread.php?t=3957

تحياتي

خالد تنقو _ الامين العام لسودانيات

تنقو ازيك
اسف
وكلامى مع خالد الحاج
وشكرا للتذكير
أحــــــــــــــــــــــــــــــــــــــــــــــــ ــــــــــــــــــــــــــــــى انا

[ملكة سبأ]

والتفريغ من المحتوى.

[طارق الحسن محمد]

المشاركة الأصلية كتبت بواسطة تراجي ابوطالب

الاخوة الاعزاء
بما فيكم طارق الحسن
شكرا لكم جميعا للمدخلات.
اولا اسامح الاخ طارق الحسن لاعتقاده اني ابحث عن شهره,فله ان يعتقد ما يشاء.
نعود للجمعيه:
.
تراجي.

شكرا ليك على هذه الروح ( المتسامحة ) رغم انى لم افعل او اقل ما يغضب او يخرج عن لغة الحوار والمحاورة
المهم نرجع للبرنامج المهزلة

تحدثتى عن بحوث ودراسات رائى عام قام بها هولا فى اواسط الشعب السودانى واجبتى ضمنا انهم وجدو ان قطاع كبير من الشعب السودانى هو مع التطبيع فهل تكرمتى علينا ان نعرف اى من هذه المراكز او الاكاديمين السودانيين المشهود لهم بعلمهم ونزاهتهم . ؟ ؟ ؟ ؟
عشان ما يكون كلام ساكت للمخارجة من الزنقة الزنقك ليها حسن معوض
تانيأ من هم المحامين الذين تكلمت عنهم ؟ ؟ والذين يودون ان يرفعو قضية دستورية برغم انك ما قلتى دستورية ضد الحكومة لازالة عبارة كل الدول عدا اسرائيل من الجواز السودانى ؟؟؟؟؟؟؟؟؟؟؟؟؟؟؟؟
وهم كمحامين اموكد انهم لان يخافو من تنشر اسمائهم لانه بيادو فى ( شغل ) وبياخد و مقابل مادى قصادو
وهم اكيد ليس ( كمثقفى ) جمعيتك الذين رفضتى الافصاح عن اسمائهم واحيى قدرتك على شيل ( وش القباحة )
بالنيابة عنهم ؟؟؟؟؟
لماذا لم تجيبى بوضوح عن سر توقيت الاعلان عن قيام هذه الجمعية فى هذا التوقيت تحديدأ ؟؟؟
اما كلامك عن الفائدة التى يمكن ان يجنيها من اقامة علاقات مع اسرائيل من ناحية الفائدة من نقل التكنلوجيا الاسرائيلية للسودان ماهى هذه التكنلوجيا ؟ ؟ ؟ ؟ اتحداك ان كنت قرات ولو صفحة واحدة فقط فى هذا الامر !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
والحمد لله انه من ضمن الفوائد القليلة التى ان وجدناها فى بلاد الاغتراب هى الاقتراب من اشياء ومعرفة اشياء لم يكن ان تتوفر لنا لو بقينا فى بلادنا واشرح ليك ببساطة شديدة ( التــــــــــــــكـــــــــــــــــنـــــــــــــل ـــــــــــوجـــــــــيــــــــــــا ) الاسرائيلية فى مجال الزراعة وهى ياستى بكل بساطة اختصرها ليك فى انظمة الرى بالتنقيط والزراعة داخل الصوب والانفاق وكلها تندرج تحت مسمى الزراعة المحمية والتانية الرى المحورى وهى تكنلوجيا امريكية والهدف من الرى المحورى ببساطة زراعة اكبر مساحة ممكنة باقل قدر من المياه واقل عدد من اليد العاملة والتانية هى الصوب والانفاق وهى الزراعة فى اصغر مكان ممكن بااقل قدر محدود جدا من المياه واكبر انتاجية ممكنة وبرضو عدد محدود من اليد العاملة وياستى هى تكنلو جيا مكلفة جدا جدا وكدى فكرى نحنا محتاجين ليها فى السودان ؟؟؟؟؟؟؟؟؟؟؟؟؟؟؟؟؟؟؟؟ ؟؟
وازيدك من الشعر البيت كل التكنلوجيا دى متوفرة فى الاردن لانه الفلسطينيين نقلوها للاردن من صديقتك اسرائيل وحتى فى الخليج اصبحت تنتج وتصدر لكثير من الدول
وشكرا ليك اديتنى فرصة ( استعرض معرفتى )
وراجع ليك

[طارق الحسن محمد]

المشاركة الأصلية كتبت بواسطة تراجي ابوطالب

الاخ عمك تنقو

[frame="1 80"]خطأ كبير ان لاتعرفي ماهي فكرة برنامج نقطة نظام وطريقة تقديمة ومن هو حسن معوض ..
وتقبلي بالأستضافة .. لان ما حدث في اللقاء لم يخرج عن سياسة وطريقة تقديم البرنامج من سنوات
وهذه هي طريقة الرجل في التقديم وهذه هي فكرة البرنامج .. يعني لا توجد نظرية مؤامرة .[/frame]
بالله
هنالك فرق بين اسلوبه المباغت وبين محاولته للنيل مني بسبب تلك الجمعيه.
اذا لم توجد نظرية مؤامره من حسن معوض الفلسطينين وهو يستضيفني أذن اين توجد؟؟؟؟



ما لم تعرفه انه كيف تم التسجيل...
ومالم تعرفه ان حسن معوض هذا اوقف التسجيل اكثر من مرة ليعيد تغير اسألته لانه اندهش من قوة
طرحي بل عكسي لهجماته المرتده,وكان الادعاء ان هنالك خطأ فني!!!
ويعاد طرح الاسئله مع تغيير بسيط لا يلحظه الفرد بسهوله
وقد علمت بما قاله عني بعد محاورتي ,واعتقد كله كان كلام ايجابي عني.


رايكم مقدر ولكن اكيد لي الحق في الركون للغالبيه...والحمد لله تلفوانات ناس هاجموني من قبل كانت اول من رن في بيتي اليوم مهنئين بأنه برامج موفق جدا,وتكفيني شهادات زملاء في قناة العربيه,بأنهم فخوروين بي
وبمقدرتي على السيطره على الموقف في البرنامج.



[mark=#FF0033]ورغم ما عرف عنه كأشرس محاور(حسن معوض) الا اني اعتقد بأني روضته تماما بل وهزمته ايضا.تراجي[/mark].

والله يا تراجى
ذكرتينى بقصة الفار المشى سكر
ونسى نفسه
واصبح يصيح اين الكدايس اين الكدايس
الربع ساعة الاولى للبرنامج اى مقاطعة
منه ولو كانت صغيرة كنتى بتسكت قبل ان يتم
مقاطعته لك !
ومنوالقال ليك حسن معوض
مصنف من اشرس المحاورين ؟؟؟
طيب سامى حداد
واحمد منصور
وفيصل القاسم يكونو شنو
ارانـــــــــــــــب ؟؟؟؟؟؟
ولا كنتى تحلمى يجيبو ليك لارى كنج ؟؟؟؟
ومن انت حتى يتم يجندو لك اشرس المحاورين
؟؟؟؟؟؟؟؟؟؟؟
عجبى
وشنو قصة التلفونات الشغالة عندك دى !!!!! ؟؟
منذ اعلنت قيام الجمعية لم ينقطع رنين التلفون ّّّّ!!!!!!!؟؟؟
منذ بث البرنامج لم ينقطع رنيين التلفون !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!؟؟؟
عجبى

[Garcia]

العزيزة تراجى
حضرت إعادة اللقاء بالامس .. و اعتقد ان زمن البرنامج ليس كافيا ..
لتناول هذا الموضوع , وتذكرت الممثل الكوميدى الساخر ياسر العظمة ..
حين انتقد المذيعين حين يسألوا الضيف سؤال , وقبل ان يكمل حديثه يباغته
مقدم البرنامج بسؤال آخر وهذا ما حدث معك بالامس ...
استشفيت من حديثك ان الاحباط من موقف العرب تجاه قضايا السودان بصورة ,
عامة ودارفور بصفة خاصة , وتعاطف بعض اليهود تجاه قضية دارفور ..
هى احدى اسباب إنشاء الجمعية .... لكن نسألك هل فى قناعتك ان هذه اسباب
كافية لقيام جمعية صداقة مع دولة لاتحترم القانون الدولى ومبادئ حقوق الانسان ,
التى تنادين بها وتصنف المواطنين داخل اسرائيل لعدة تصنيفات ...
( راجعى كتابات عبدالوهاب المسيرى ) فى هذا الخصوص ....
وكم عدد هؤلا الذين يريدون العيش بسلام ويتعاطفون مع قضايا فلسطين ودافور ؟؟؟
%1 او 2 % ؟؟ لماذا لم تنشرى قائمة الذين يساندون موقفك هذا ؟؟؟
اذا لم يكونوا يخجلون من موقفهم لماذا يفضلون ان تكون اساميهم فى الخفاء ؟؟؟
تحدثتى عن ان هناك قطاع كبير من الشعب يقف معك ؟؟؟ واعتقد ان ذلك كلام فضفاض
وليس له مصداقية مالم يعضد ببيانات اسماء تنظيمات او جماعات ... واشكك فى هذا
الكلام الى ان نرى حقائق ماثلة امامنا ....
اتفق معك واستنكر استخفاف بعض العرب للشخصية السودانية , والتعامل باستعلاء و
دونية لكن يجب ان نأخذ ان هذه تصرفات فردية فقط ... ولا ينبغى ان يدفع الاخرين
ثمن هذه التصرفات القذرة التى تبين مدى جهل وغباء تلك الاصوات النكرة ..ومواقف
الحكومات الجبانة تجاه السودان والذين قد لا يهمهم ان يستقر الوضع بالسودان لقيام
الساعة ... لكن كل ذلك ليس كافيا للذهاب لعمل جمعية مع اسرائيل ... فهم اسواء
واكثر عنصرية من العرب واجزم انكم تسرعتم فى هذا الطرح من الاساس ولم تدركوا
عواقبه على المدى الطويل .. ولن تجنوا ثماره على ارض الواقع ونتمنى الا نحضر
ذلك اليوم الذى تحط فيه طائرات إسرائيلية مطار الخرطوم , حتى لو وقعت اسرائيل
سلام عادل وشامل مع الفلسطينيين انفسهم ومن جانب آخر لا تنسى ان هناك عدد
لا يستهان به من العرب كتاب ومثقفين ومواطنين ... ساندوا ووقفوا مع كل قضايا
السودان العادلة واستنكروا مواقف حكوماتهم بشدة وعبروا ..عن ذلك صراحة فى
مقالات ولقاءات صحفية واعمال ادبية وشعرية و ..... الخ فهل من الحكمة انكار كل
ذلك ووضعهم جميعا فى سلة واحدة ؟؟لا اعتقد ذلك ....

[تراجي ابوطالب]

طارق الحسن
شكرا لمعلوماتك الغزيره (وباين انت الفار السكر هنا)
انا لا ارغب في الحديث عن من اتصل بي من داخل العربيه لينقل لي راي حسن معوض نفسه(فشوف لك شغله)
وبرضه يندرج في دائرة التلفونات الغايظك ده.
بعدين انت باين عليك زي اهلك العرب ديل...لانه المثقفين الذين تعتقد اني تعمدت اخفائهم...وانت شكلك متابع جيد للمواقع الالكترونيه.... والا لقرأت للكثيرن مواقف مختلفه جدا حول اسرائيل.....وليس هنالك حوجه للتحدث عنهم وكتاباتهم امامك لكنك تقرأ بعين مغمضه الحقيقه.
او يبدو انك تقرأ للصفوه...اياه.
اعود واقول لك انا غير معنيه باقناعك او غيرك ممن يحاور بهذا الشكل الاستفزازي.....واحمد لله كثيرا ان قلت
للعرب في عقر دراهم راي فيهم....امش رقع وراي كان عايز.
قال راي بالتنقيط قال

بعدين اعلم انك تخلط فهذا ما ورد في لقاء العربيه المكتوب مع خالد عويس وليس مع حسن معوض.
وكونه حسن معوض شرس او غير شرس هذه سمعتها من اهل العربيه ايضا,ولكني لست حريصه على متابعة
كل هؤلاء المعتوهين الاعراب...
تراجي.